Here we go.....continued
Here are a few thoughts in response to this post I received from Nathan some time yesterday...
Nathan White said...
Good thoughts, and excellent quote by Homer. I guess the impression that I got from your post is one
of pragmatism. That is, many within the SBC are very pragmatic. They will assume that God is working
and that their methods are biblical simply because people show up, have an emotional experience,
or even make some sort of profession of faith. Unfortunately, they will defend their methodology with
numbers instead of the word of God. In addition to that, the dominant thought is that churches that are
not growing are doing something wrong. However, like I said above, I believe the great commission
when Christ says 'make disciples'. He didn't say make conversions; He didn't say reach people where
they are at (as He turned away several people such as the rich young ruler. Today, if the rich young
ruler were to come to church, he'd be given the best seat and an offering plate). Making disciples
requires a specific and dedicated emphasis on doctrine. Therefore, to break it down:-Evangelism is
primarily for the Glory of God-Evangelism and salvation come by the Word of God -and it alone. -
Evangelism and salvation DO NOT come by: Cleverness, Persuasive Words of Wisdom, Persuasive Words
of Wisdom, Reasoning, Marketing, Testimony, Experience. -Our ministry is thus shaped by our
theology, instead of our ministry being shaped by our methods. Sorry for the long post; maybe that
helps you understand where I'm coming from. SDG
Let me just jump right in and be the first to admit that drawing a crowd does not necessarily equal success. It doesn't take a whole lot to draw a crowd. With that in mind, I DO believe that numbers are VERY important. I believe this to be true as a result of the fact that in the NT there are many details about the numbers of people being saved, showing up at events (feeding of the 'how many'), etc. Numbers represent people and people matter a whole lot to God.
Jesus did say to make disciples; however, one is not a disciple unless he or she is evangelistic. Also, I would disagree about Jesus not reaching people where they are. He told the rich young ruler exactly what he needed to do; however, the rich young ruler was not willing to pay that steep a price (I know that this leads to another theological discussion that most are just dying to jump into). Paul was extremely persuasive throughout Acts, 1 Corinthians, etc. in his attempt to share his faith. He used all sorts of various methods in order to reach the people. Theology is vital (If you don't think right - you won't act right), and I would argue that method is vital as well. People 'hear' differently. As a result, let's do whatever it takes to reach them.
Thanks Nathan for the comment. Check out this link as well on the whole subject of numbers...http://www.perrynoble.com/2006/03/08/do-numbers-matter/
Nathan White said...
Good thoughts, and excellent quote by Homer. I guess the impression that I got from your post is one
of pragmatism. That is, many within the SBC are very pragmatic. They will assume that God is working
and that their methods are biblical simply because people show up, have an emotional experience,
or even make some sort of profession of faith. Unfortunately, they will defend their methodology with
numbers instead of the word of God. In addition to that, the dominant thought is that churches that are
not growing are doing something wrong. However, like I said above, I believe the great commission
when Christ says 'make disciples'. He didn't say make conversions; He didn't say reach people where
they are at (as He turned away several people such as the rich young ruler. Today, if the rich young
ruler were to come to church, he'd be given the best seat and an offering plate). Making disciples
requires a specific and dedicated emphasis on doctrine. Therefore, to break it down:-Evangelism is
primarily for the Glory of God-Evangelism and salvation come by the Word of God -and it alone. -
Evangelism and salvation DO NOT come by: Cleverness, Persuasive Words of Wisdom, Persuasive Words
of Wisdom, Reasoning, Marketing, Testimony, Experience. -Our ministry is thus shaped by our
theology, instead of our ministry being shaped by our methods. Sorry for the long post; maybe that
helps you understand where I'm coming from. SDG
Let me just jump right in and be the first to admit that drawing a crowd does not necessarily equal success. It doesn't take a whole lot to draw a crowd. With that in mind, I DO believe that numbers are VERY important. I believe this to be true as a result of the fact that in the NT there are many details about the numbers of people being saved, showing up at events (feeding of the 'how many'), etc. Numbers represent people and people matter a whole lot to God.
Jesus did say to make disciples; however, one is not a disciple unless he or she is evangelistic. Also, I would disagree about Jesus not reaching people where they are. He told the rich young ruler exactly what he needed to do; however, the rich young ruler was not willing to pay that steep a price (I know that this leads to another theological discussion that most are just dying to jump into). Paul was extremely persuasive throughout Acts, 1 Corinthians, etc. in his attempt to share his faith. He used all sorts of various methods in order to reach the people. Theology is vital (If you don't think right - you won't act right), and I would argue that method is vital as well. People 'hear' differently. As a result, let's do whatever it takes to reach them.
Thanks Nathan for the comment. Check out this link as well on the whole subject of numbers...http://www.perrynoble.com/2006/03/08/do-numbers-matter/
posted by J.R. at
8:20 AM
2 Comments:
Hey J.R.
Glad to see you consider my thoughts. I’m not sure of the exact point I’m trying to make, I’m simply just throwing a few things out there to consider.
You said: With that in mind, I DO believe that numbers are VERY important.
First off, I agree that dwindling numbers could possibly be for a reason, and that successful numbers could possibly be a work of God. When numbers are low we should always be open to the fact that we may be hindering them by something, but just because they are low in no way means that there is definitely something wrong. This is similar when numbers are high. If we read the gospels closely, we see that Jesus was not very popular guy. He drove away people who were semi-serious about following Him; He offended a whole bunch of ‘disciples’ in John 6 who were interested in Him (doing this on several occasions); and He is the one who said things like “wide is the gate that leads to destruction…and there are many who find it”, and “Many will say to Me on that Day ‘Lord, Lord’”. So, when numbers are high, I think we need to be extra careful to consider that we may be doing something wrong as well. In both extremes we need to be cautious to our ‘blind spots’ that may be generating the numbers instead of the theology we teach generating the numbers (through the Spirit of course).
Secondly, I don’t think we can comprehend numbers accurately at all. So we had 100 ‘decisions’ last night? So what? Have we forgotten the parable of the soils? Are we so naïve to think that the number of professions is anywhere close to reality? Jesus had 12 disciples, and even one of them was lost. How much more is this true in our society, in our day, and in our theologically-weak churches? We cannot see the heart of man, and so I think attention to numbers is a big mistake. This is coupled with the fact that this type of attention turns salvation into a process in which we can ‘go down the list’ and be saved...salvation is not a process at all, it is a life…but that’s another topic :)
Thirdly, the Prophet Jeremiah preached for 40 years (40 YEARS!) and didn’t have one known convert. Why didn’t he see numbers as important? Was he doing something wrong? Boy, he’d been kicked out of many churches in our day for not ‘producing numbers’.
Lastly, consider the apostle Paul in this area: “What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor” -1 Cor 3:5-8
Notice here that the passage says “God gives the growth…each will receive his wages according to his labor.” We don’t receive a reward based on our numbers; we receive a reward based on our labor. God causes the growth.
SDG
I agree with some of what you said; however, the church of the NT grew. How do we know - the numbers were recorded and talked about for the next 2000 years. Living things grow. God is still in the business of changing lives and as a result - He will bring the increase. Does God bring the growth? Of course He does. God brought the growth then and He continues to do so to this very day. Numbers are not the "end-all" in determining effectiveness; however, they are most definately something that factors into the equation. It has been fun amicably disagreeing with you on almost everything. Keep the discussions coming...I do enjoy it.
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